Sugarloaf 2030 Plan - Buyer Beware?

[Tree]

Help me understand this:
1. February 2020, Sugarloaf announces the 2030 Sugarloaf/Boyne Plan . This included, a new West Mountain lift- Doppelmayr 6-CDL (possibly heated seats and bubble) to be installed in 2021. Nice.

2. Summer of 2020, the lift installation is changed to 2022. It is described as a 6 pack.

3. March 2021, the lift is identified as a Doppelmayr 4-CLD “relocated from Loon Mountain, NH”.

So, are we going from a brandy new heated 6 pack to a used 4 pack?? Can this be?

What happened?

The way this project is going, I wouldn’t’ be surprised that during the Spring of 2022 Sugarloaf/Boyne announces that the West Mountain lift will be a ‘slightly used rope tow’ found at the Carrabassett Maul.

Certainly makes a perspective West Mountain lot buyer to take a pause. Especially if the lots are going for the rumored $300k - $500k. A rope tow to the top- what a deal. Certainly justifies paying $300k-$500k for a lift serviced West Mountain lot. Go Boyne!

[SpillwayEast]

Sure makes you wonder. The new lift at Saddleback is a game changer for that mountain and so will the new lift to the top of Squaw if that gets put in this summer...........rumor has it they are ordering very soon. We all know sugarloaf is in need of new lifts.......hopefully sooner rather than later.

[cruiser]

Interesting that liftblog no longer gives the same degree of details

Only says detachable doppelmayr. Doesn’t specify if it is a quad or 6 pack

This after clearly listing it as the first post specifies earlier today that it was the relocated kanc from Loon

Interesting that it disappeared so quickly.

I would imagine it would be a tough sell to put in the new west mountain express that is basically the same age as the superquad but time will tell.

[essslsclsact]

Weird, just a few days ago listed as a Quad. Seems it’s not settled, but if it is going to be used for summer events in and around Bullies it better nice, new and inviting.

[shot ski]

Wait till you hear about the sugarloaf 2020 plan...

[Alpiner]

But really... is anyone honestly going to lap this new West Mountain chair?

[heavysquad2]

Covid happened?

[Pow on the Mao]

But really... is anyone honestly going to lap this new West Mountain chair?

it will transform the way you get up the mtn in the morning. here's a very typical scene:
mud lots to wait for a shuttle that drops you at the ticket window instead of SQ.
but after slogging to quad, the line is torched. up to double runner you go.
30 mins later you get to top of skyline.

alternate:
you get to WT in time for every kids group to jump you. 30 mins later you get to KP.

or you parking basically any mud lot. ski down from your car to new high speed lift. from there to skyline. eventually from there to summit.
no shuttles, more line spread. no fucking around on maine street.

[Mr. Vesper]

But really... is anyone honestly going to lap this new West Mountain chair?

Perhaps that lift would get more than 0 riders per day mid-week.

[gondicar]

But really... is anyone honestly going to lap this new West Mountain chair?

it will transform the way you get up the mtn in the morning. here's a very typical scene:
mud lots to wait for a shuttle that drops you at the ticket window instead of SQ.
but after slogging to quad, the line is torched. up to double runner you go.
30 mins later you get to top of skyline.

alternate:
you get to WT in time for every kids group to jump you. 30 mins later you get to KP.

or you parking basically any mud lot. ski down from your car to new high speed lift. from there to skyline. eventually from there to summit.
no shuttles, more line spread. no fucking around on maine street.

And depending on type and amount of new terrain added and where the bottom and top terminals are, I could definitely see families and beginners/intermediates lapping it, would sure beat lapping double runner.

[essslsclsact]

But really... is anyone honestly going to lap this new West Mountain chair?

it will transform the way you get up the mtn in the morning. here's a very typical scene:
mud lots to wait for a shuttle that drops you at the ticket window instead of SQ.
but after slogging to quad, the line is torched. up to double runner you go.
30 mins later you get to top of skyline.

alternate:
you get to WT in time for every kids group to jump you. 30 mins later you get to KP.

or you parking basically any mud lot. ski down from your car to new high speed lift. from there to skyline. eventually from there to summit.
no shuttles, more line spread. no fucking around on maine street.

You sure got this right. In addition afternoons lapping the new area will be great for those with tired legs. We’re in the older crowd now fully vaccinated and this lift would extend our ski day making for more runs and more fun.

[goldenboy80]

Even if its not incredibly difficult terrain, I think the new high speed chair will be popular. We've never experienced what this part of the mountain is capable of since it always took 20 minutes on Bucksaw or West Mountain Chair to reach the top. For people with condos on that side of the mountain it will be really popular I think and having the option of SQ or the new chair will add variety. Btw, I took a trip to Aspen two weeks ago to check that out. Interesting they kept a couple of old fixed chairlifts for historical charm. I liked how the locals built shrines to their favorite bands in the woods, with benches, flags, and photos tacked to trees, in a private section of a glade. They did it for Phish, Jerry Garcia, John Denver, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and a few others I didn't come across. It would be cool if we did more of that at the Loaf to add character. A 2030 ambition.

[skiloaf]

There are good trails you could ski: scoot, glanced, horseshoe, West Mountain and bucksaw are okay but no character. I'm hoping they keep some trails on the thinner side. More Saddleback/buck board style. Makes the flats feel faster. I don't hate haywire / candy side. Would lap on a cold day I'd bubble/heated seats. It's a vacation/weekend lift but hey that's where the money is!

[Alpiner]

it will transform the way you get up the mtn in the morning. here's a very typical scene:
mud lots to wait for a shuttle that drops you at the ticket window instead of SQ.
but after slogging to quad, the line is torched. up to double runner you go.
30 mins later you get to top of skyline.

alternate:
you get to WT in time for every kids group to jump you. 30 mins later you get to KP.

or you parking basically any mud lot. ski down from your car to new high speed lift. from there to skyline. eventually from there to summit.
no shuttles, more line spread. no fucking around on maine street.

Good points and I certainly understand the implications for the morning rush and crowd spreading. I just can't really imagine an expert spending half a day skiing there unless everything else is on wind hold. And will beginners/intermediates want to spend much time over there in Siberia, not even able to see Sugarloaf? It'll be like skiing at some other hill. I remember taking the occasional ride up Bucksaw as a kid. I would gaze over at the mountain and think THAT's the real mountain, this is kindergarten.

I think a big part of the skiing experience is being inspired by your surroundings, especially on the chairlift. Which is why I don't need to go back to Park City. Or Sunday River for that matter.

[Alpiner]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this new lift. It's needed. I just don't see it transforming the way I use the mountain as we are on Snubber. Now, if they put a lift on Burnt with some regularly groomed trails, that would be a game changer for me. Not that I expect or necessarily want that.

[muleski]

I pretty much agree with Alpiner. We owned a home up on West Mountain for about 15 years, until it was time to downsize.
We were below the current lift's mid station, but we were real ski-in ski out.

It was SO much easier to take the shuttle to the base in the AM, back in those days. Got us up on the hill faster, IMO. Maybe with a new, faster lift, I would change that plan.

In the afternoon, when West Mountain had snow, and was reasonably skiable, we would ski home. That was a plus....and had nothing to do with the lifts. When our kids were young, like before SCVA ages, before we lived over there, we would occasionally ski there in the spring sun. For a couple of runs. Lift was torture. Terrain? Not great. much preferred the terrain under Bucksaw.

West Mountain was excellent for sledding, though. We did a lot of laps over the years. Unload at the top of Sandy River Circle, pick up at the golf course. Repeat.

I think that Alpiner's comment that you don't really feel connected to the mountain, to Sugarloaf, when over there is spot on. And that's a big thing to me. Our house had a small peak at the summit. Pretty rare over there. One of our first condo's was high on Mountainside, looking right at the summit, and it felt much different. I realize I'm talking housing versus the skiing. It is is pretty far out there.....

If it was my money, not sure that I'd put it there. Now that could change with a drive to the mountain, parking strategy.

[cruiser]

I am not seeing this new lift being a fix for west mountain or creating new great terrain. Some West mountain folks are pissed as they don't want the top of the current lift to go away which happens in the current plan. But if the majority of West mountain can ski to a new lift it will change lots in that neighborhood as well as the option to ski to the lift from the parking lot rather than the shuttle plan currently in place. Will folks lap this new lift? Doubt it but I don't think that is the point.

It is an investment in the mountain to allow summer mountain biking and a way to get to bullies for weddings etc. Also it is saying it will have a tubing park in the area as well and is supposed to be the new area for kids etc. It also opens up the entire area between the timbers and west mountain for trails as well as real estate (ski in ski out which commands a premium). Real estate is a driving factor and with such shortages Sugarloaf would be foolish to waste a hot market. Their plans that are out there show lots of development potential both between the current west lift and the timbers as well as higher up the mountain on West. But if I am looking for a new lot on a mountain am I going to buy when the new promised lift becomes a 25 year old quad taken from another mountain? Sunday river is putting in a new lift at Merrill. Saddleback just put in a new lift and is promising more. Big Squ** (don't know if we can say its name anymore) is saying they are putting in a new lift and developing. Obviously Loon is getting new lifts when looking at New England Boyne areas.

But I think this is the test folks have waited for; as the 2020 plan didn't seem to pan out on many fronts, and it was always rumored that Boyne didn't own the mountain so they couldn't invest or get the capital to put into it (as they weren't the owners). When Boyne bought the mountains there was lots of talk that as owner operators they could invest. If they invest with a used leftover lift from another one of their mountains it really sends a message. That may influence folks to look at some of the other options in Maine or New England that are putting in new lifts and infrastructure. Granted hard core Sugarloafers will chalk it up to being a Sugarloafer and keep skiing here, but with the market the way it is I bet many folks who own here now couldn't buy here in the current market (at least I couldn't and maybe that is my issue). I have heard lots of rumors about the prices of the new lots that are coming (though could be total BS as well) and they aren't cheap. If they want to maximize their real estate revenue they do have to invest something legitimate. Otherwise why pay top dollar to buy on a mountain using recycled lifts from it more favored resorts? (at least that would be the perception)

Interesting time in the ski world with all the pass options and flexibility people have, but I think there needs to be some real investment in the mountain or else folks may not pay a premium for a place that has been lacking in ongoing investment. The investment may not be one based on getting expert skiers a place to lap expert trails but it needs to show that there is some work on making the experience better. It may not make it better for everyone but if it generates a buzz and gets real estate money flowing into the mountain hopefully there can be additional investment to improve the experience for all.

John

[T.O.S.]

In the post ASC decades what's new at Sugarloaf? Besides the date.

[essslsclsact]

In the post ASC decades what's new at Sugarloaf? Besides the date.

A huge increase in snowmaking with more in the plan. We can hardly imagine how skiing would be without all the newer snow guns and now if they can only get the water needed future skiing will be better preserved.

[T.O.S.]

Nope. The increases of which you speak are left over or surplus of investment made across the company(s). And your answer goes to the point. Water. The increase in hardware is directed to conservation of water sugarloaf doesn't have. The ground gear you see around the hill are SR series equipment, or random antiquated technology that nobody else wanted. SR being Sunday River leftovers. And Sugarloaf is has been pumping them for 25 years. The pipe is older than that, and showed it. Imagination? Can't make snow outta that. "We?" You maybe. But if you want to replace fantasy with reality, go to Loon for a look a what it takes to make snow.

[heavysquad2]

I'd rather ski the loaf with crappy snow versus rubbing elbows with Joeys at those other places.

[T.O.S.]

Agreed. The point was not the clientele, rather the infrastructure, which I might point out is directly related to credit card attached to the elbow of the aforementioned Joeys. A representative if not foundational example of Sugarloaf's place in the business model across multiple corporations.

[skiloaf]

I think you are wrong about gun tech. There are some older guns coming from other mountains (bucksaw guns) but there are a ton of new HKD impulse four-stage guns, quite a few new klik hydrants on tote/candyside and all the new Impulse guns on Gauge last year are the new five stage version. If you go to Loon they have huge system capacity but quite a few older guns / boyne low-e fans.

Looks like the note about the WestMountain lift coming from Loon has been removed from liftblog.

[essslsclsact]

I think you are wrong about gun tech. There are some older guns coming from other mountains (bucksaw guns) but there are a ton of new HKD impulse four-stage guns, quite a few new klik hydrants on tote/candyside and all the new Impulse guns on Gauge last year are the new five stage version. If you go to Loon they have huge system capacity but quite a few older guns / boyne low-e fans.

Looks like the note about the WestMountain lift coming from Loon has been removed from liftblog.

Agree lots of the guns are newest technology. And yes at some point the water will be there and the lines will be upgraded or given climate changes SL will be moving toward Toast

[T.O.S.]

OK. But I'm still thinking Boyne buys in scale from HKD and distributes as they see fit. No differently than any previous owner in their own way.(ASC hotels etc.) And the pipe is getting older every day. And that's my point. New lift? 20 years of talk. Snowmaking? You might be right about the "investment" in gun tech. And you are right about Loon gear. But they got the WATER to compensate. We got a muddy road and more "plans" for a dam. That I actually think will happen "soon" in the chronology of sugarloaf soon. But this is only half of it. The other half is disruptive, complicated, expensive, and I expect will be linked to other infrastructure "plans" which will go on for something beyond "soon". There's bits of truth scattered around this topic. "Robbing elbows with Joey". OK. but whats it worth? New lift? As far as I'm concerned it is, but a lift is just the bright shiny toy for skiing. There's a lot more to a "world class" ski resort and it all needs money. I'ver heard it before. And so have you. I'm still interested of course, but I feel better knowing what I can touch, keeping my imagination in the realm of what I can want. It's easier to be told what to believe than think for yourself. Just something I like to keep in mind.

[Alpiner]

I am not seeing this new lift being a fix for west mountain or creating new great terrain. Some West mountain folks are pissed as they don't want the top of the current lift to go away which happens in the current plan. But if the majority of West mountain can ski to a new lift it will change lots in that neighborhood as well as the option to ski to the lift from the parking lot rather than the shuttle plan currently in place. Will folks lap this new lift? Doubt it but I don't think that is the point.

I think this lift will be the fix for West Mountain. It should run every day. Looks like everyone from Kennebec Circle and up will be able to ski down to it. That is pretty huge. Everyone below that (Timberline, Penobscot Circle, etc) can ski down to the bottom of the current WM lift and then take the crosscut to SuperQuad (if that crosscut will remain) or ski down to the new lift. I can envision another skiway running next to WM road on the uphill side so that more owners downhill of Kennebec Circle can ski down to the new lift.

The top portion of the WM lift going away means only paying 2 people to operate the lift instead of 3, a significant savings. That part of the lift really isn't needed after the new lift goes in. People who formerly lapped it can now lap the new lift. People who formerly used it as mountain access from their house/condo really aren't losing much.

One thing I don't understand from this map, are people parking in lots E+ and skiing down the new trails supposed to hike up to the new base lodge to buy their ticket??

Interesting that two of the new trails are marked black diamond.

(right click, view image)

[Alpiner]

TOS, I believe Boyne has significantly upgraded our snowmaking. The HKD guns practically create powder, whereas the old guns basically make ice. Other than that, Skyline? King Pine base? Yeah they were forced, but they did it. Upgrading SQ to all digital systems. The new beach. Painting the village shit brown. Brackett Basin/Burnt - huge. Cat skiing. Grass on the access road shoulders. The new Widowmaker. Moar Bullwinkles. Getting shuttles off Main Street - the Champs D'Elysee of Sugarloaf!

[Ltaylor56]

TOS, I believe Boyne has significantly upgraded our snowmaking. The HKD guns practically create powder, whereas the old guns basically make ice. Other than that, Skyline? King Pine base? Yeah they were forced, but they did it. Upgrading SQ to all digital systems. The new beach. Painting the village shit brown. Brackett Basin/Burnt - huge. Cat skiing. Grass on the access road shoulders. The new Widowmaker. Moar Bullwinkles. Getting shuttles off Main Street - the Champs D'Elysee of Sugarloaf!

+1. All true. At the same time, it can be hard to be the sibling who gets socks and underwear for Christmas every year when it seems like your siblings get new bikes!**


**non autobiographical observation...

[machski]

I would have been shocked if the Kanc Quad was used for the new West lift. It is short at just a tick over 4000' line length and only 1000 vertical. Maybe it could work in that allignment but I would suspect it would need substantial upgrades (only a 600HP drive, bet West line would need more) or greater spacing on chairs to limit uphill lin weight. All of which I cannot see them doing at Sugarloaf, on that lift anyway.

As to SR's new lift, you cannot compare the cost of a short CLF with that of a CLD. Big difference there in cost both aquisition and operating/maintenance longer term.

[BubbleCuffer97]

Some West mountain folks are pissed as they don't want the top of the current lift to go away which happens in the current plan. But if the majority of West mountain can ski to a new lift

Yes, I am one of them. This part of the plan makes no sense to me. How much $ will they really save in maintenance from the lift only going halfway up vs how much will it cost to remove the top half of the lift/bringing down the top terminal? If you look at the 2030 plan, a lot of the houses on west mtn are actually too low to make it to the new lift. I for one don't mind the ride up the old lift and see no value in removing the upper half alone.