Sugarloaf's first six pack

[machski]

Thought doppelmayr wasn't rebuilding garaventa ctec lifts. But if they are funny to see sugarloaf as the little sibling to Big Sky getting all the hand me downs. Guess some siblings rate higher than others. Would the detachable 6 chairs be more wind resistant than the fixed grip quad? Since we are looking at about 50% wind hold days for the current timberline I sure would hope whatever lift they use to the top will be more wind resistant. I am sure that is in their consideration.

Extending timberline doesn't help with lapping the top of the mountain. The Big Sky new tram remedied that problem there compared to the old beer can tram.

Remember those mailings (or emails) we got a number of years ago asking about interest in luxury lots over around Burnt and Bracket? If you extend King Pine down you can open up a ton of lots that could be "ski in Ski out". I did Burnt today and looked around and there is a good amount of land that really can't be used for trails. So I bet ROI would be much greater with that plan. Sell a ton of lots for similar money to the Dutchmans woods on West. Should pay for the refurb of the lift. Plus seems there is some focus on King Pine foundations at present so good optics to show they are totally fixing safety issues. I just hope we can keep multiple tower 1s on the new lift as that is confidence inspiring on the current.

Really just hope there is some hope for a heated bubble at some point as it can be a game changer on cold days.

Will be interesting to watch it all play out. But lots still moving with West Mountain so wonder what capacity is for multiple moving parts.

John

I don't believe 6 shooter would be as refurbed as Bucksaw was. Some of the wear parts would get changed out and/or overhauled, but I would think since this is older Garaventa/CTEC gear that is not in current production, that would be the extent. Also why this lift is not appropriate to replace SuperQuad (that lift deserves to be brand new just from an operational hours standpoint). But using to replace KingPine or even Timberline makes a lot of sense, even more so that it would join two other sibbling lifts at SL (Whiffletree and SQ are both Garaventa/CTEC machines). Both alignments are shorter than 6 Shooter's 8700' line length, which means the capacity on the reinstalled lift will go up and spacing on chairs will likely tighten up to a more normal 6 setup. BigSky tried to source more chairs for 6 Shooter as is as the lift drive was more than robust to go to normal spacing, but given this type is out of production, they could not find any. Thus, the primary reason BS is replacing the lift.

[Rossignolsoul7]

BigSky tried to source more chairs for 6 Shooter as is as the lift drive was more than robust to go to normal spacing, but given this type is out of production, they could not find any. Thus, the primary reason BS is replacing the lift.

Maybe, but if you're familiar with Big Sky, you know that the lower moonlight basin side's terrain sucks, and sucks royally. So, I think there's a big motivation from them to disperse crowds given that most of the good terrain and the shiny new toys are on the other side.

That project is as massive as their new tram. That lift line is extremely long and I bet this this going to be the world's longest 8-pack and probably by a large margin. Nothing long like this in Europe. Also, it will require immense excavation work to fit a D-line sized top terminal where the current top terminal is.

Way to go Big Sky!

[machski]

BigSky tried to source more chairs for 6 Shooter as is as the lift drive was more than robust to go to normal spacing, but given this type is out of production, they could not find any. Thus, the primary reason BS is replacing the lift.

Maybe, but if you're familiar with Big Sky, you know that the lower moonlight basin side's terrain sucks, and sucks royally. So, I think there's a big motivation from them to disperse crowds given that most of the good terrain and the shiny new toys are on the other side.

That project is as massive as their new tram. That lift line is extremely long and I bet this this going to be the world's longest 8-pack and probably by a large margin. Nothing long like this in Europe. Also, it will require immense excavation work to fit a D-line sized top terminal where the current top terminal is.

Way to go Big Sky!

Sort of, but remember they have the One and Only resort project going up across the Moonlight side that is getting its own D-Line Gondola to/from it (it is just a transport lift, no skiing directly from the One and Only Gondola). So they definitely need to add capacity out of Moonlight. They would have been ok with the current 6 shooter had they found more chairs. When they couldn't, that casued them to pivot to all new and went D-Line 8 for capacity and ride comfort on that long line.

[goldenboy80]

I hope the 6 shooter gets installed from Bullwinkle's to the summit. That way when SL reopens the summit lodge you'll be able to get a beer at Bullwinkle's, ride up to the summit in a hurry, get another beer (or use the restroom) at the summit, and ski back down to Bullwinkle's... then repeat the process over and over again. On a sunny day, you can't beat it.

[heavysquad4]

I'd rather a new lift go on Burnt.

[goldenboy80]

True, that would be sweet too. Do you mean to replace KP or actually on Burnt? I predict it will go up Timberline if we actually get it as a new chair there would be extremely marketable in terms of selling the remaining Bucksaw Express lots. Plus, the heaviness of those chairs offsets the chief concern of a fast detachable (wind) without costing Boyne a fortune to install a brand-spanking new signature lift... plus the existing Timberline is so much older. Also, Sugarloaf should take a look at bringing their old Timberline T-Bar out of retirement and building another competition center around it at the base of a new Timberline Express Six, no?

[heavysquad4]

No I want a new lift in a new location.

1)If people can't get to timberline from the Superquad or Spillway, they have no business at the summit.

2) you still can't lap the snowfields with a longer timberline

Give us a Burnt Lift cowards!

[loafman207]

I wouldn’t mind a burnt mountain T-bar or a mittersill-esque double chair. Keep it rowdy but providing reliable access

[Alpiner]

I predict it will go up Timberline

An easy prediction, since that has already been stated and Chipper was constructed for exactly this purpose.

Also, Sugarloaf should take a look at bringing their old Timberline T-Bar out of retirement and building another competition center around it at the base of a new Timberline Express Six, no?

What on earth are you talking about? You think they have it in storage? They do not. And there is not enough slope anywhere near that location for any competition training.

[ceo]

I've long thought that a surface lift would be ideal for Burnt. Keeps the capacity down and makes it a little more old-school. Since you can't have a trail cross a surface lift, the existing glades off the ridge on Golden Road (Birler 1&2 etc.) can stay as they are, and maybe develop a few more glades on Burnt proper. (I've only been over that way once and it was some years ago, so I don't have a good sense of what it's like now.)

[skiloaf]

I heard it was going in from outdoor center to bottom of snubber, angle station to base.

[WrathOfAramark]

I heard it was going in from outdoor center to bottom of snubber, angle station to base.

It's going to be the realization of the Jhondillah? Maybe just call it the Jhonpack?

[ja_loaf]

Nice. But 13 days late on this post.

[cccski]

It would seem to me that the obvious use for 6 shooter would be a Superquad replacement as that still is a bottleneck even with the new Bucksaw Express. A discussion I had with Crusher this year revealed his preference for replacing the SQ with a non-bubble 6. From a traffic standpoint as well as lift to trail number standpoint, that would make sense. I think a high speed quad will replace Timberline with an alignment to Bullwinkle’s to facilitate summer use to a rebuilt summit venue. I don’t think a Timberline replacement to Chipper corner is in the works because it would negate the summer possibilities. I also heard for environmental reasons, development to the south or west of Chipper is prohibited. Please note, I am frequently wrong, but never in doubt.

[Ski_The_East]

It would seem to me that the obvious use for 6 shooter would be a Superquad replacement as that still is a bottleneck even with the new Bucksaw Express. A discussion I had with Crusher this year revealed his preference for replacing the SQ with a non-bubble 6. From a traffic standpoint as well as lift to trail number standpoint, that would make sense.

Makes negative sense to replace a 30 year old lift with a 21 year old lift that has lower capacity.

Cannot understand either why crusher would not want bubbles, especially on a lift like superquad. Maybe makes sense for timberline, but SQ?

[DoubleBitter]

I also heard for environmental reasons, development to the south or west of Chipper is prohibited. Please note, I am frequently wrong, but never in doubt.

According to the trail map, Chipper is right against the ski area boundary, so that's as far west as they can go,

[essslsclsact]

It's not easy to picture a lift from Bullwinkles to the top without a large amount of change in the landscape. The line along the Timberline route does take you to the big turn on Chipper below Bullies. Of course with enough money it could bye done.

[Alpiner]

Makes negative sense to replace a 30 year old lift with a 21 year old lift that has lower capacity.

Does 6 shooter have longer chair spacing resulting in less skiers per hour? If so then this lift definitely should not replace SQ.

I think a high speed quad will replace Timberline with an alignment to Bullwinkle’s to facilitate summer use to a rebuilt summit venue. I don’t think a Timberline replacement to Chipper corner is in the works because it would negate the summer possibilities. I also heard for environmental reasons, development to the south or west of Chipper is prohibited. Please note, I am frequently wrong, but never in doubt.

Bullwinkle's is the summer venue. Replacing the summit lodge is so far off and may never even happen, certainly not to an extent that would make it a more desirable summer venue than B's. The 6 shooter installation is much more near-term. Aligning it from Bullwinkle's would be outrageously unwise as it would mean disturbing Tote Road, Sugarloaf's signature trail.

[Rossignolsoul7]

Makes negative sense to replace a 30 year old lift with a 21 year old lift that has lower capacity.

Given this, and the fact that it doesn't seem to make much sense to replace timberline by a 6-pack, why would we expect the 6-shooter to come to SL as opposed to SR or another Boyne Resort?

Perhaps replace WT with the 6-shooter and move WT to timberline with Chipper bottom terminal. Wouldn't be the first time a WT gets moved there!

[Ski_The_East]

Makes negative sense to replace a 30 year old lift with a 21 year old lift that has lower capacity.

Does 6 shooter have longer chair spacing resulting in less skiers per hour? If so then this lift definitely should not replace SQ.

Shooter only has 85 chairs. SQ has around 136 or something. Would be a capacity dump. Shooter currently has an 1800pph capacity with its huge chair spacing, same as a FG triple.

[Ski_The_East]

Makes negative sense to replace a 30 year old lift with a 21 year old lift that has lower capacity.

Given this, and the fact that it doesn't seem to make much sense to replace timberline by a 6-pack, why would we expect the 6-shooter to come to SL as opposed to SR or another Boyne Resort?

Perhaps replace WT with the 6-shooter and move WT to timberline with Chipper bottom terminal. Wouldn't be the first time a WT gets moved there!

Makes even less sense for WT to be shooter. Replacing a 27 year old lift with a 21 year old lift. Why in the world would you move wt to chipper and not shooter? Shooter will have heavier chairs, which will increase wind resistance. People are getting too hung up on the size of the chair for capacity, this does not directly mean that a lift will have a certain capacity. Shooter only having 85 chairs on the line from chipper to summit would keep the lift pretty low capacity, and wicked wind resistant. Lots of mountains build sixers in windy spots with big chair spacing for wind resistance.

Its pretty much a given shooter is coming here, and TL makes boatloads of sense. Dont see a spot at any other Boyne mountain where this lift makes more sense, (a long lift line, but low capacity.)

[machski]

Makes negative sense to replace a 30 year old lift with a 21 year old lift that has lower capacity.

Does 6 shooter have longer chair spacing resulting in less skiers per hour? If so then this lift definitely should not replace SQ.

Shooter only has 85 chairs. SQ has around 136 or something. Would be a capacity dump. Shooter currently has an 1800pph capacity with its huge chair spacing, same as a FG triple.

But SQ is 2000' shorter line length than 6 shooter was. Chair spacing would tighten up and capacity would likely be about the same given 6 per chair vs 4 on Super Quad. But that seems like a waste for SQ, I would think they want to increase capacity there and put a more signature chair in there (IE, faster, newer, higher capacity and given length, bubble and heated seats I would think). If Dopp is willing to do a full refurb of the CTEC detaches, it actually would make sense for Whiffletree. Whiffletree is half the length of 6 shooter with 10 fewer chairs than 6 has available. As a 6, I would think they would cut the carriers back to 65ish on a line the length of Whiffletree. But no full refurb, doubt Boyne wants to reuse that lift itself. And oh yeah, the first refurbed Dopp Boyne re-installed just had a grip slip and chairs collide at Shedhorn at Big Sky yesterday.

[goldenboy80]

You raise some good points. Using the six for Whiffletree does seem like another good solution based on what you say. I guess the question is whether it's as urgent as the other projects. My magic 8-ball says ask again tomorrow.

To maximize skier happiness, ranked in order of importance, I think the priorities are: 1) Timberline Replacement, 2) SuperQuad Bubble Six Replacement, 3) Summit Building Rebuild.

What's your top 3?

[Lawshark]

Aligning it from Bullwinkle's would be outrageously unwise as it would mean disturbing Tote Road, Sugarloaf's signature trail.

Hey...I'm confused on this one...I know we discussed dissatisfaction with screwing up Binder but how would a new TL screw up Tote Road? I figure any new alignment would be to skier's left of the current lift...

[heavysquad4]

Aligning it from Bullwinkle's would be outrageously unwise as it would mean disturbing Tote Road, Sugarloaf's signature trail.

Hey...I'm confused on this one...I know we discussed dissatisfaction with screwing up Binder but how would a new TL screw up Tote Road? I figure any new alignment would be to skier's left of the current lift...

Maybe they are thinking if you put the base in the huge open part in front of the Bullwinkle's entrance, you would hit Tote.

I still see zero reason to nee to get to the top from Barwinkles.

[myell]

I say it may be a little of both, not all the way down to the big turn in Chipper, but a bit out to the west from Bullys, maybe just a bit farther away than the Bucksaw unload. Someone more talented than me, please mock up some detailed maps of the different options for us to peruse!

[ceo]

I put together what I see as the viable alternatives in Google Maps, here.
Green is the Chipper alignment we've been discussing; Maps doesn't have the new trails yet so the base location is my best estimate based on the terrain. Or you could have it start further up; that location is about 1000' and gently downhill from Bullwinkle's.
Another option is the former Timberline T-bar alignment, now Cinder Hoe, in green; this puts the base about 650' from Bullwinkle's. A disadvantage here is that it'll be a bit of a climb from the top station to Narrow Gauge Extension etc, unless you put it up closer to the true summit.
And in red is the least disruptive alignment directly from Bullwinkle's that I can come up with; it takes over those little side bits on skier's left of Tote Road. Unfortunately it ends up even further from the top of Gauge.

Despite being the one who identified the Chipper turn as a potential base location, I'm less and less convinced it makes sense, because it's pretty far away from the top of Bucksaw and really far from the top of SQ or Skyline.

[Alpiner]

To maximize skier happiness, ranked in order of importance, I think the priorities are: 1) Timberline Replacement, 2) SuperQuad Bubble Six Replacement, 3) Summit Building Rebuild.

I think King Pine should be replaced next, with something more wind resistant and probably starting lower. KP goes on wind hold the most after Timberline. Timberline is not critical. KP accesses a ton of terrain that can really spread out advanced skiers. On big dump days it typically lets us down, causing huge lines at SQ and Skyline.

Hey...I'm confused on this one...I know we discussed dissatisfaction with screwing up Binder but how would a new TL screw up Tote Road? I figure any new alignment would be to skier's left of the current lift...

What heavysquad said.

I still see zero reason to need to get to the top from Barwinkles.

Mostly I think it's so you can access the top from Bucksaw. They could also make another couple trails down from the bottom of the current Timberline to the bottom of the future Timberline at the big turn on Chipper. And it would be cool to have the option when you step out from lunch at BW's to be able to go to the summit.

Despite being the one who identified the Chipper turn as a potential base location, I'm less and less convinced it makes sense, because it's pretty far away from the top of Bucksaw and really far from the top of SQ or Skyline.

I think it makes perfect sense. Who cares if it's far away from Bucksaw/SQ/SL, it's all downhill. I really don't think summer summit access is a consideration at all. Extending TL to Chipper on its current alignment is the least disruptive option.

[Ski_The_East]

Even though shooter probably goes to TL, I agree with Alpiner about KP. I would love shooter to replace KP and drop down lower, would be much more wind resistant, create a better pod on the east, and would be a good potential gateway to burnt if/when they build a lift/trails. This really should be done IMO, leave brackett alone, but develop burnt with an actual chair, trails, more glading and snowmaking. The current setup is a little bit of a waste as is even though its cool. Would get so much more value out of 3-400 acres of lift serviced skiing that could be all different types of runs.

[skiloaf]

I don’t need more runout on king pine. It’s not even on the website replace list anymore. There is some core stuff that needs to be built out first like DRC / TL / SQ.

I think fine to drop KP a little lower but not a lot. Better to drop a little tripple for house lots over there that ends at bottom of KP. You could also use it for burnt access. Feels like they have 10-15 yrs of real estate to sell on west mountain first.